Talk:Tuvok
Rank This may have been asked/addressed elsewhere, but does anyone have an explanation (other than writer/costumer error?) why Tuvok starts Voyager as a Lieutenant Commander (or so his pips proclaim in at least Caretaker, Part II, and Parallax), but is then a lieutenant? just curious -- umrguy42 03:59, 5 May 2005 (UTC) :More importantly, why is it that he's called Lieutenant, when he's got the rank of Lt Commander? On TNG, Data and La Forge both were Lt Commander, but they were called Commander rather than Lieutenant. On Voyager, Tuvok held the same rank as Chakotay in at least the first season. Didn't he get demoted some time? zsingaya 07:16, 30 Jun 2005 (UTC) :If Tuvok got promoted to Lt Commander in 2374 ( ), when was he demoted to Lieutenant? He was Lt Commander until at least , but by , he was Lieutenant. I don't have the videos of the episodes inbetween, so when was he demoted? zsingaya 18:54, 2 Jul 2005 (UTC) :: I wonder if it could be attributed to the events in , when he *stole* the technology from the Sikarians. I know he got some sort of reprimand, maybe it was turned into a demotion offscreen? If I get a chance later I'll go through my DVDs to see if I can pin point the episode the change was made. --Alan del Beccio 09:14, 8 Jul 2005 (UTC) ::: There is a section on Tuvok missing about his presence in the alternate universe on DS9 -- DD July/1/2005 :::: he was always a lt. before being promoted to a lt. commander in like the fourth season. it was a retcon because the producers wanted lt. commander chakotay to outrank him. : He may well have been a Lt for some time, but he wore Lt Commander pips during the first half of season 1. zsingaya 06:44, 12 Jul 2005 (UTC) :::: true, but he was NOT a lt. commander, just as tom paris was NOT a full Lt., only a JG, even though he wore the two solid pips. :Tom Paris was a Lieutenant, but got demoted because of his reckless behaviour, and Tuvok got demoted, probably because of , but then got promoted again in . Chakotay was always higher in rank, because he was "first officer", even if he wasn't even a commissioned officer. zsingaya 07:27, 14 Jul 2005 (UTC) ::::: I don't remember what episode it was, but it seems like I remember that Tuvok's rank changed between Lt. and Lt. Com. throughout the episode(based on his pips). It was in the first season sometime. :I've just watched "Prime Factors", and it doesn't appear that Tuvok got any punishment for disobeying the Captain, and neither did B'Elanna Torres. She didn't demote him at the end of the episode, but maybe this was implied. Does anyone have the next episode? I'll have to watch tonight, to see if he's back to a lieutenant at the end of season 1. Zsingaya ''Talk'' 19:53, 2 Jan 2006 (UTC) :I've come to the conclusion that the costuming department on Voyager hadn't quite pinned down the ranks of Paris and Tuvok until near the end of Season 1. In , Tuvok's rank changes between Lt Commander and Lt a number of times, but finishes with him as a Lieutenant. Also, I believe this is the first time we see Tom Paris with Lt JG rank rather than as a full Lieutenant. Zsingaya ''Talk'' 22:50, 14 Jan 2006 (UTC) :::::: "There is actually NO REASON at all. I just watched 'Heroes and Demons' today, two episodes after 'Prime Factors' and he was a lt. commander and then I proceeded to watch 'Cathesis' and he was a lt. These two episodes are the 12th and 13th episodes but there is no event that triggers this loss of rank." Inconsistencies with age If Tuvok was born in 2264, and Asil was concieved during his 11th pon farr. That means 77 years from his first. Vorik had his first pon farr in 2373, filmed when the actor was 25. Assuming Vulcans age at the same rate as humans for the first 30 or so years (I've seen no evidence to contradict this), it's logical to assume Vorik is around the same age. That would mean that Asil was born sometime around the start of TNG (2364), and would've still been a little girl by the time Voyager got stranded (and thus the oldest possible age for her kohlinar). However, Spock's kohlinar was at an older age, around 40. One could theorize that Spock never did the ritual until later in life, due to his human heritage, but it really seemed beyond the level of children. I'm seeing a webbed inconsistency here that should really be mentioned. --Zeromaru 21:29, 16 Sep 2005 (UTC) :Assuming Vulcans age at the same rate as humans for the first 30 or so years (I've seen no evidence to contradict this) -- I haven't seen any to confirm it, either. For all we know Vorik could have been 47. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 22:32, 16 Sep 2005 (UTC) Yes, he could've been. But that would make the inconsistency even larger. Tuvok was only 107 at the start of Voyager. If Asil had JUST been born (and somehow did those extreme trials), that would place 30 as the latest age for his pon farr. All I'm saying is that the ages aren't exactly logical. --Zeromaru 23:56, 16 Sep 2005 (UTC) ::First things, don't expect any logic in Tuvok's age. There's a different one given in , , and . Flashback gave the exact date of birth though, Fury said something like "Pretty soon you'll hit three digets" (which is wrong, he was well over a hundred already) I think it was Alice where they said the 11th pon farr thing, and then Harry said "we know he was at least 100 when he rejoined Starfleet". Illogical. I think the original character bible said he'd by about 175, so there might be clues in the first couple seasons even different from those... -AJHalliwell 00:02, 17 Sep 2005 (UTC) :::Actually, I think the original plan was to have an older actor play a Vulcan of 150+ years, but they reconsidered this after Tim Russ' audition. :::Assuming Vulcans age at the same rate as humans for the first 30 or so years (I've seen no evidence to contradict this) -- Maybe not, but T'Pol looked to be about 30 but later admitted her age to be more than twice that. Visual evidence indicates that adult Vulcans generally age about half as fast as humans (except Spock, who is half-human). This makes it damn near impossible to guess a Vulcan's age. Unfortunately Voyager's blatant disdain for continuity doesn't help. For the record, I choose believe the "Flashback" age to be correct and any conflicting evidence from "Alice" is a result of Tom and Harry not having all their facts straight (Tuvok, in fact, said as much in the episode). "Fury", I just plain ignore.--T smitts 06:19, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC) ::::I don't think you need to read much into Janeway's comment about him reaching 100. Since she's human, it's very possible that she found out his birthday but not birthyear and logically, he knew not to discuss it any further. 17:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC) Tuvok's Age explicitly states that insufficient information is given to reach a logical conclusion. Therefore, given the oddities of Star Trek Technobabble, the answer is illogical. Perhaps Tuvok experienced something abnormal which affected his normal age, or the ability to calculate it from the given facts. Being a typical Vulcan, he's being very tight-lipped about personal information.--Mike Nobody 00:55, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC) :Perhaps they are sometimes references to Earth years and sometimes Vulcan years. He might have been well over 100 and still about to hit three digits in terms of his own planet. Jaf 01:08, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC)Jaf ::In response to the above section, how do we know he was born in 2264? I only recall a stardate being spoken in . According to a line in , Janeway said to Tuvok, on his birthday, "So, it's not long before you hit the big three digits, huh?". Since the episode takes place in 2376, and the fact that he is not yet 100 clearly means he was born sometime after 2277. However, the above individual is correct, if indeed, as a Vulcan he started the Academy at the age of 18, there is indeed an inconsistency. If he was born in 2277, then he would have started the Academy in 2295 and graduated around 2299. The problem is, is that we already know from that he was serving aboard the in 2290, as he was on the ships return voyage from its 3 year mission in the Beta Quadrant. Backtracking from his posting on the Excelsior, assuming it was his first posting after four years at the academy, which he attended at the age of 18, then Tuvok was born in (2290-4-18=) 2268, which I am willing to accept. Considering that in "Fury", (prior to what I quoted Janeway stating above) she had said "It took exhaustive research, sifting through teraquads of data, separating fact from rumor, but eventually I arrived at the truth" -- it is quite possible that she was simply wrong, and Tuvok was just playing along when he answered her question about hitting "the big three digits". The age related facts that play out in "Flashback" seem to be more concrete than a 15 second blurb. --Alan del Beccio 04:07, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC) :::From the episode : :::*Janeway: "Tuvok, why doesn't your service record reflect any of this? I thought your first assignment was aboard the Wyoming." :::*Tuvok: "It's a long story, Captain, but suffice it to say this was my first Starfleet career. I was 29 years old." :::Tuvok was talking about the events on the Excelsior in 2293. This is where everyone seems to get the "2264" figure from.--Tim Thomason 05:13, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC) :: Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, well that really contradicts Janeway in "Fury" then, as that would have made him 112. --Alan del Beccio 05:33, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC) :::: I don't think there's an incosistancy, at least not one that can't be explained. The age Tuvok gave in "Flashback" was in Vulcan years, and the year Janeway gave in "Fury" was in human years. It could have been vice-versa, but I wouldn't think so. Anyways, I think that's what you pointed out above, Alan, so I don't really think there's a consistency that needs to be given a great deal of thought. Maybe... --From Andoria with Love 05:48, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC) :: Bah! Janeway was wrong! Why? Cuz the universal translator in my tv doesn't convert to Vulcan years. Yeah, I went there. --Alan del Beccio 06:03, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC) ::: I think Shran has it reversed. Tuvok was speaking to Janeway in "Flashback" so he was probably speaking in Earth years, because he was speaking to a human and Starfleet officer, and Earth years seem to be the Starfleet standard. In "Fury" it was Tuvok's birthday so Janeway spoke to him in Vulcan years, because Tuvok really wouldn't care how old he is in Earth years.--Tim Thomason 06:17, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC) :I don't think the universal translator argument holds water. If Janeway was talking about Vulcan years in english I can't see it breaking out unnecessary math, if it did they simply wouldn't be able to speak in terms of time from other planets and that wouldn't be helpful at all. I suspect the system is more interactive. If Janeway as a Human was speaking in Vulcan years to a Vulcan and the whole thing was in English... Jaf 12:14, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC)Jaf ::::: If Tuvok experienced any temporal phenomena or was kept in suspended animation for any of the fifty or so years he was unaccounted for, would that change the (apparent) validity of any of the numbers? Remember, there are always alternatives -- and if both numbers seem to have been given honestly and correctly, there might be a (logical?) explanation we don't know of for the contradiction. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk ::::: If he had spent 14+ years or so in a stasis pod or recursive temporal loop, it would explain it quite nicely -- also explaining why he was apparently jobless for most of the 24th century. There are more fun ways to "drop out" and be lazy for a few years, but its a big galaxy. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 20:08, 2 Jan 2006 (UTC) :::::: The Star Trek Encyclopedia offers the following dates and citations. ::::::*"Tuvok was born in 2264 (uncited), entered Starfleet Academy in 2289 (VOY: "Flashback"), was assigned to USS ''Excelsior in 2293 ( ), married in 2304 ( ) to T'Pel ( ), and met Janeway in 2365 ( )." :::::: This doesn't really ''explain any inconsistencies, but these are the only actual dates I can find from a reference source.-- :::::::The Vulcan/Human year thing doesn't make a lot of sense to me. There's no particular logic to preserving local differences in time perception in a Federation comprised of so many diffierent worlds. Indeed there can't be just one "Human year", because humans live on more than one planet. A standard year must be observed or else there'd be utter chaos, especially when two people — or two computer systems — of different home planets are conversing. Just think the Y2K bug writ very, very large. The only regular instance of different usages of time units in Star Trek is, to my mind, in Deep Space Nine. It does seem to me that there could well be four different kinds of year on display in that series: Federation, Bajoran, Dominion and Cardassian. None of this supposition is canonical, of course — because varying approaches to time passage are, for the most part, wholly avoided in Star Trek. But a place that is not wholly one culture or another is the most logical place you'd find differing language as to time passage. A Federation starship, like Voyager, is completely the opposite, a place where you'd expect commonality and uniformity. Janeway (a human) must be able to speak in terms Tuvok (a Vulcan) and Souter (a Betazoid) must be able to comprehend. :::::::I'd add another couple of scraps of canonical evidence that further implies a discrepancy: contains the statement that hed been studying criminal behavior for over 100 years. This implies, to me, that he's even older than the 2264-derived age, because he wasn't in security during his first Starfleet career, as depicted in . Also, we're kinda forgetting Tuvok's reaction to Janeway's assertion in . He agrees with the "big three digits" comment. Spock, Tuvok and T'Pol rarely let what they would regard as "Human misconceptions" of Vulcans pass like that. If he didn't intellectually believe her statemtn to be true, he would've, I think, spoken up and said, "Not literally, true, Captain. I have actually already surpassed the age of 100, when measured in Vulcan terms." Or, alternately, "Your research is flawed, Captain. You have neglected to account for the difference between the length of a year on Vulcan and Federation standard." CzechOut ☎ | 04:46, 15 October 2007 (UTC) :::::::: When you use the Vulcan year from Gene Roddenberry Vulcan (planet), 100 vulcan years correspond to 116-134 earth years (inaccuracies due to rounded numbers). Or the other way: 111/112 earth years are 83-97 vulcan years. So that makes it a very plausible explanation. – 14:47, 13 January 2008 (UTC) It's possible that Tuvok was speaking in Stardate years, which for next gen onwrads is 1000 stardates equals one Earth year. janeway * "Tuvok first met Kathryn Janeway in 2363." that is not mentionet ist this episode * JANEWAY: "The first time I met Tuvok he dressed me down in front of three Starfleet admirals for failing to observe proper tactical procedures during my first command. My human ego took a little bruising, but of course he was right. Over the past nine years I've come to rely on his insightful and unfailingly logical advice. For outstanding services, Chief Tactical and Security Officer, it's my pleasure to grant you the rank of Lieutenant Commander. Congratulations, Tuvok." no year is given. in i can find the folloring dialouge: *JANEWAY: "We've known each other for how long?" *TUVOK: "Approximately twenty years." that would mean that he lernt each other in ca. 2356. -- 13:28, 17 Jan 2006 (UTC) PNA I added the PNA template because this article (and most of the other Voyager character articles) have a lot of information cluttered together. This info needs to be formated better. --Galaxy001 00:21, 18 January 2006 (UTC) Tuvok on the Enterprise B Hey, just wondering if this was just the same actor in another role, but I was just watching Star Trek Generations for the first time in a while, and Tuvok was there as a science officer helping out as the Enterprise B got its ass kicked by the Nexus. Just wondering if someone knows the answer to this? Thanks! :Although the actor was Tim Russ, it was a different role. The officer aboard the appeared to be a human; his info can be found here. Tuvok was actually aboard the at the time... at least, he should have been, since the scenes in aren't supposed to be set too long after the events of , during which time Tuvok definitely was on the Excelsior, according to . Hope that helped! :) --From Andoria with Love 08:13, 5 August 2006 (UTC) ::I've just watched Generations again in a while as well, and i can confirm that this must be a blunder on the writers part. Tuvok is called by name in the scene with the Enterprise B's encounter with the Nexus. :::I just checked the script and there is no reference to Tuvok anywhere. Could you please cite a dvd timestamp? I'll probably watch it tonight anyway. --Morder 00:52, 18 May 2008 (UTC) :Actually, don't bother, we already know he wasn't called by name. ;) --From Andoria with Love 05:16, 18 May 2008 (UTC) the meaning of Tuvok's name hi, does anyone know what Tuvok's name means? :well, according to my own personal memory alpha (then I mean my friend name for the part of my memory that contains star trek :-).), the names of the Vulcans does not have meanings. I'm making that statement on the fact that I don't remember any time reference to the meaning of Tuvok or any other vulcan name. Hope it helped, and if someone are to figure out that I am wrong, please tell me so. I would be nice to know that I don't speak things that are not true.-- Örlogskapten. Qapl'a! 20:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC) Birth stardate Anyone get the feeling that maybe the stardate of Tuvok's birth might be missing a decimal point? Tim Russ may have just dropped it accidentally. 3877.4 (or maybe even more appropriately, 387.74) is a much better fit. Dangerdan97 17:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC) Mental Health Is there a reason "Endgame" is sited twice in the mental health section.--UESPA 21:48, 13 February 2008 (UTC) Slow Ascension Through Starfleet Ranks Does anybody think it worthwhile to add a section to the article regarding Tuvok's very slow ascension through the Starfleet ranks? Even having two careers, one would think that he would hold a rank higher than Lt. by the beginning of Voyager's awfully long adventure. Perhaps there's a plausible explanation, but whether there is or not, I think there's sufficient curiosity to warrant a section about it. Is anybody knowledgeable enough about Tuvok to shed some light? --Space Moose 05:15, 29 April 2008 (UTC) Picture I really see no need for two images in the infobox for him. The only differences they really depict between the character is, well, basically nothing. Otherwise, there is not a huge age difference as seen between the TOS characters or even the TNG characters, and the unnecessarily huge infobox really cuts into the early part of his life. --Alan 18:23, 13 September 2008 (UTC) :Forgive me, but the only voice I have seen on the discussion page on this matter is yours. I thought issues such as these were to be discussed. As it is, it looks as if you decided to take unilateral action based on your own preference and beliefs. The convention of two images was told to me by Shran and I believe, Cid Highwind some time ago. – [[User:Eyes Only|''Watching...]][[User Talk:Eyes Only| ''listening...]] 18:22, 28 September 2008 (UTC) ::Point of order on attacking Alan for his "unilateral action", he made his talk page comment trying to start a discussion on this 2 weeks ago. No one responded, in 2 weeks. Starting a discussion on a talk page is not handing away your rights to be bold if no one else bothers to respond. --OuroborosCobra talk 19:30, 28 September 2008 (UTC) Regarding the use and number of images in the sidebar really all depends on a number of variables, span of time the character spans, and the affect it has on the aesthetics of the article, or in short, sometimes it works where it works, and sometimes it doesn't. In this case the character sidebar significantly interfered with the rest of the article's content, displacing image placement and logical flow of the article, which is essentially what I already explained. --Alan 19:46, 28 September 2008 (UTC) :OK. Understood. But in editing an article, when does being bold cross into the realm of, as we say in Trinidad, being "fass an' outta place" (meaning being rudely presumptuous)? I've seen some who thought they were being bold get pulled up by their socks right quick by administrators. – [[User:Eyes Only|''Watching...]][[User Talk:Eyes Only| ''listening...]] 21:41, 28 September 2008 (UTC) :::Basically, if you "be bold" and others don't like what you do, they'll let you know it. That's what's great about the being bold rule: if you see something you feel should be changed, you can change it. If other people don't like it, it can always be reverted. That's one of the benefits of working on a wiki. If there's ever a doubt as to what should be changed, though – i.e. if you think for a moment what you're doing might be perceived as "rudely presumptuous" – it never hurts to bring it up in discussion before making said changes. Otherwise, as they say, go ahead and "be bold." :) --From Andoria with Love 21:54, 28 September 2008 (UTC) :OK. Thank you. :) – [[User:Eyes Only|''Watching...]][[User Talk:Eyes Only| ''listening...]] 22:02, 28 September 2008 (UTC)